More Gates to Go
For our very first blog post, we chat with Jordan and Leah of the Side Characters podcast about representation in media. For more fantastic deep dive discussions on the role of representation in video games, movies, your favorite sitcoms, and more, check out Side Characters virtually anywhere podcasts can be found!
Please introduce yourselves! Who are you, how long have you been podcasting, and what’s your show?
Jordan: I am Jordan, Engineer by day, podcaster and nerd by night. I am into anything comics, anime, video games and horror related. A few hit favorites are Fullmetal Alchemist, Revival, Horizon: Zero Dawn, and Poltergeist. I am of African American descent and grew up in predominantly white areas, which left me feeling like an outcast due to my skin color. I turned to nerd media for escapism, and became extremely passionate about nerd culture. I started podcasting in 2018 with a show called World Shop where I could express my own nerd stories and ideas freely. Even though this was an outlet for me, I wanted to do more in nerd culture - something that felt important - so I started planning for Side Characters, a podcast about cultural diversity in nerd culture.
Leah: I am Leah, I am an academic who studies archeology and anthropology. Also, I am a nerd. I grew up reading scifi and fantasy, I read a lot of manga, watch a lot of tv and movies (particularly dramas) and I play way too many video games. I like Fullmetal Alchemist, LucasArts games, Ghibli films, and prefer happy endings for the full escapism effect, unlike Jordan who dwells in melancholy. I am a LGBT+, white woman who has experienced your usual gatekeeping and questioning of whether or not she is actually a nerd, like many women do. Side Characters is my first podcast and I am fumbling along as best I can, annoying Jordan as he tries his best to produce a show.
How did this show come about? How did you two end up teaming up for it?
Leah: The podcast grew out of our continuous conversations about our frustrations with every aspect of nerd culture. We decided to say “screw it” and turn on a microphone to record instead, as those conversations would have continued no matter what. Thankfully, some people listen to it.
Jordan: Leah and I have been friends since high school and have been into some of the same types of nerd culture. Over the past few years, I would talk to Leah about my continued frustrations about diversity in nerd culture, such as gatekeeping and lack of representation/the way diverse characters are represented. Since I was already podcasting, I thought it would be helpful for those who are frustrated with nerd culture, as well as those who are willing to learn more about diversity, to hear us talk in detail about some of these topics.
What role does representation play in media? Should it be a top line consideration when casting, animating, etc.? Should it be a secondary to other components?
Leah: I think that representation is not something to be slotted into a hierarchy of priority, rather representation encompasses that hierarchy. Representation makes the story, makes the characters, and defines all aspects of the media that you consume. You cannot separate representation from other aspects, that divide is artificial and created by those holding the power, the Western white patriarchy. This means that it should be a part of and thought about in every step of the creation, production, and dissemination process.
Jordan: As a kid, African American representation in media was few and very far between. I grew up thinking in order to be a superhero or to be important in society you had to be white. I think that representation should be the top consideration, because those consuming media represent many different cultures, races, ethnicities, etc. If you cater to one culture you lose both the significance of the others, and also shape the minds of those watching to believe that there is only one important way of living. I think representation not only opens up to the viewers, but also opens up nerd media to writers, actors, and other creative minds.
Leah: I second all of that, but from a woman's perspective.
How does the discussion differ in “nerd media” from other mediums?
Leah: Largely, it is the same for other mediums, but it has more expanded issues, such as cosplay, depiction of minorities in animation, cultural appropriation, and fetishization. A large portion of these issues stem from the origins of nerd culture and the exclusivity of its practice to white men: who was (and is) allowed to practice and who could partake was determined by social and economic factors. Those with more leisure time (historically, a privilege of the upper class) and more wealth were both able to create fantasy and science fiction that is the foundation of nerd culture and purchase the goods produced from that. And who had that time and money? Western white men. It is only recently with the internet and globalization/democratization of media that all minorities can bust down those gates and force their way into nerd culture. Though we clearly still have more gates to go.
Jordan: Like Leah said, nerd culture was only accessible by those who had the money and time to consume it. We are beginning to see that same divide only grow larger with entities such as multiple streaming services for nerd media and the increase in internet culture. What remains the same is that nerd culture started out predominantly white. We are continuing to see pushback by those who think that it should remain white, and those who never saw a problem with diversity in nerd culture to begin with. But those are a common problem across all mediums.
How important is representation to you in what you read, watch, etc.? How much does it factor into what you personally choose to consume?
Jordan: Representation in the media I consume is very important to me. As I said before, there was a lack of diversity in the media I consumed as a child so I do seek out diverse media in things I consume now. There are times when I watch and enjoy certain nerd mediums specifically to support diverse works. However, if there is a lack of diversity or representation in something I enjoy, that isn’t a complete game-ender for me. I still like to consume those things even if it is just for the reason of discussing how we can change things for the better or how we can continue to move towards a more diverse nerd culture. Take anime for example, representation in anime is a little bit one note at times, but that doesn’t ruin my enjoyment of anime as a whole. I guess all and all, what I am trying to say is that I pick and choose my battles.
Leah: I largely agree with what Jordan said. I find that I actively go out of my way to find works that tell interesting stories from more than just the white male perspective.I also notice that while I will watch things that are not representative, I often get bored or frustrated with them and stop watching them anyways.
Jordan: Or you immediately text me about how bad it is.
Leah: I like to recommend series to other people, and when I do, I try to make sure they have a full picture of what the series is like and what is good or bad about it. I feel like I have developed my own internal selection process both for recommending and watching media; like an expanded Bechdel test in my mind.
Jordan: Leah talks to me a lot about things she is watching, and a lot of the time we do have a discussion about the things that stand out as great about them, or things that are very bad. Sometimes you might even hear some of that on the show.
What is a movie, series, etc. that you think “does it right”?
Leah: That is probably the toughest thing you can ask us right now. It is hard to choose just one.
Jordan: Honestly, I have a couple that absolutely stand out in my mind. One is Avatar the Last Air Bender/Legend of Korra. Great diversity in cultures, which is pretty much the very back bone of the show, as well as great representation of both male and female characters. Very few shows will have a female character step in to save a male lead, without it being a point of contention. Another great one is Get Out, a predominately black horror movie that represents black fear and anxiety without being a caricature of black culture. Lastly Night of the Living Dead, a 1968 horror movie that got rid of a lot of black stereotypes in horror films at that time such as “the spook” and treated its black lead as a human rather than a set piece. I am already preparing an eye roll because I know exactly what Leah’s first choice is.
Leah: Dragon Age Inquisition, a regular talking point on the podcast, is a spectacular video game that has a diverse cast of companions. It is the first mainstream game to have fully homosexual main characters (not bisexual). It’s romances detail scenes of consent in sexual encounters, something that is not usually shown in video games. Some of the plotlines resonate with real world oppression that occurs in the LGBT+ community. Second, is Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse. I would say it is the best spiderman movie with some of the best characters and stories. It is better than most superhero movies that have come out. Lastly, Velveteen vs. the Junior Super Patriots by Seanan Mcqure. Originally an online book, it is a very real depiction of hispanic woman's journey as an ex-superhero (think The Boys or Umbrella Academy) and has a very subtle normalisation of all types of people. I wish it was turned into a show more so than half of the superhero movies that are coming out today.
Anything else you’d like to add?
Jordan: To all the nerds out there, don’t gate-keep. Nerdom is not exclusively yours. Others especially diverse people have every right to nerd culture as you do. If someone is new to nerd culture, instead of trying to push them away, accept them and share the nerd media you love with them. Not everyone has to love your favorites as much as you do. Have fun out there.
Leah: Nerd culture focuses on possibility and imagination. We all have the chance to make stories the way we want them to be, and by doing so possibly we can change mainstream views and perception one mind at a time.
Where the hell can we find you!? Shameless plugs y’all!
Jordan: You can check out Leah and I streaming on twitch.tv/somethingigues00. We stream on Saturdays where usually I will be playing dragon because I lost a bet. You can also check out my anime stream on twitch, Wednesdays at 5:30pm EST. Lastly I have my other podcast World Shop, the podcast where we build worlds and tell stories based off of the roll of a 20 sided dice.
Leah: Soon we will have an active instagram and twitter!